Plé Vicífhoclóra:Leagan amach

Ón Vicífhoclóir, an foclóir ábhair shaor.

Structure & Style[athraigh]

I almost hesitate to mention this one, because it’s potentially complex, but here goes. Since we’re close to being a tabula rasa here, now is probably the time!

A fundamental difference between Wikipedia and Wiktionary is the consistent structure of entries in the Wiktionaries. Since our entries are so structured it would be nice to be able to manipulate that structure using CSS, but to do so we’d need to come up with a mark-up that would make the structure visible at a style-sheet level. At the moment all that structure is pretty much locked away in the entries as is a lot of its layout.

Of course, a lot of ad hoc styling already goes on in wikis using the template system, but it can be a bit limited and usually doesn’t take into account the different style sheets that are available. Only setting classes in entries (via templates) would allow different kinds of display in the different style sheets.

What brought this to mind was thinking about adding a references section (as recommended on the English Wiktionary), but wanting to make smaller than the main text or less obtrusive in some way. Then it occurred to me that some sections (like Fuaimniú) are often small and would look perhaps better as a floating box that didn’t take up the whole page width.

Really, when you think about it, our entries are set out like a piece of prose even though they are something quite different. It’s the price of applying the Wikipedia model when it doesn’t quite fit.

If we were to do this, we wouldn’t actually need to think about, or make any changes to styles right now, but if we set up the structure now (while we don’t have much data) it would give us much greater control over the look, feel and perhaps usability of the site down the track.

I’m not aware of any other Wiktionary doing this at present, but I’ve not really checked either.

Moilleadóir 02:47, 22 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

  • Hmmm - interesting. Gonna have to think over this but, yeah. I'm broadly in agreement on first glance here. I'll get back to you on this one - Alison 03:42, 22 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

A first attempt[athraigh]

Following the Wiktionary guidelines and based on what I’ve seen in articles here so far.

  1. Teanga / Language. Using the appropriate language-code template, e.g. {{-ga-}}
  2. Litrithe malartacha / Variant spellings. Dialect & older spellings
  3. Sanasaíocht / Etymology. Nice if you can get it
  4. Fuaimniú / Pronunciation
    1. IPA Using {{IPA|}} template and Irish phonology article @ wikipedia.
    2. Audio
  5. Ranna cainte / Part of speech. Using language appropriate template for categorization, e.g {{-dobhriathar-|nl}} to add to category Dobhriathra Ollainise. May be better to have categories that avoid genitives to make the templates easier to manage - Dobhriathra: Ollainis?
  6. Infhilleadh / Inflection. Presumably we can copy templates from Wiktionary for other languages, but for Irish I think we need a simple template showing just the basic info, rather than full declension tables.
  7. Sainmhiniú / Definition. Numbered (#) list of definitions
  8. Aistriúcháin / Translations. Using the yellow box template thingy & a template linking to entry in that language's wiktionary à la {{trad}}

Sampla

{{-ga-}}
{{-fuaim-}}
*IPA: {{IPA|/ceːmʲ/}}
{{-ainm-|ga}}
{{ainm 2|céime|céimeanna}}
# {{comhthéacs|céim}} [[Aonad tomhais]] do [[uillinn]] ata cothrom le 1/360 do [[imlíne]] [[ciorcal]].
# {{comhthéacs|fisic}} Aonad tomhais do teocht ar bith ar scála. Mar shampla [[Celcius]], nó [[Fahrenheit]].
# [[duais|Duais]] a bhronann [[ollscoil]] ar [[mac léinn|mhic léinn]] mar chomhartha éacht acadúla.
{{mal}} {{fir}}

{{-aistr-}}
{{(|aonad tomhais do uilinn}}
{{aistr|en|degree}}
{{-}}
{{aistr|nl|graad}}
{{)}}
{{(|aonad tomhais do teocht}}
{{aistr|en|degree}}
{{-}}
{{aistr|nl|graad}}
{{)}}
{{(|duais ollscoile}}
{{aistr|en|degree}}
{{-}}
{{)}}
{{-tag-}}
*{{t:od}}
*{{t:fb}}

Showing something like...

céim

Gaeilge

Fuaimniú

  • IPA: /ceːmʲ/

Ainmfhocal

céim, bain.² (gu. céime, iol. céimeanna)

  1. (Teimpléad:comhthéacs 1) Aonad tomhais do uillinn ata cothrom le 1/360 do imlíne ciorcal.
  2. (Teimpléad:comhthéacs 1) Aonad tomhais do teocht ar bith ar scála. Mar shampla Celcius, nó Fahrenheit.
  3. Duais a bhronann ollscoil ar mhic léinn mar chomhartha éacht acadúla.
Mal: fir.

Aistriúcháin

Tagairtí

  • Niall Ó Dónaill, Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla, Oifig an tSoláthair, Baile Átha Cliath, 1977
  • An Foclóir Beag

Moilleadóir 13:35, 16 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

Templates, language & accessibility[athraigh]

(Copied from Plé_Úsáideora:Moilleadóir)
One more thing: if you make the header templates Gaelic only, or worse if you replace the templates by headers-in-Gaelic you make this site one for Gaelic speakers only. The Dutch wikti has fought this tendency from the start and advocated a set of international header templates like -adj- etc. simply because that allows people like Haukela (a Fin who does not speak Dutch) to add lemma's in Finnish on the Dutch wikti. Unfortunately the English wikti has very soon abandoned this way of thinking (the french has not interestingly) in favor of: everybody's gotta know English! Maybe they can afford to be so rude and arrogant but then can you Gaels? Jcwf 75.178.188.48 20:30, 16 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

This is a very important point and one I’m not sure I’ve thought through very carefully, so bear in mind that as I’m writing this I’m still sorting out what I think about it.
My first reaction is to ask what is the purpose of the Vicífhoclóir? If it’s purpose is to help people with learning Irish then that need might already be met by the English Wiktionary. From looking around there seem to be people doing good and detailed work on adding full declensions of Irish nouns for example. We need to keep in mind that the primary purpose of any Wiktionary should be to provide a service to the speakers of that language. That’s not to say there can’t be secondary purposes too.
Of course, it can be argued that things aren’t so straightforward for a minority language, especially one that’s (let’s face it) been in decline for 160 years. By the same token, the very same precarious position of Irish vs English will lead some people to see the use of English (even in template names) as a sign of defeat. Not saying I’m one of those people, but it’s worth considering.
We could indeed use English names for all templates (there’s certainly the terminology out there), but there are a couple of areas where this might be a little strange.
One is parts of speech that don’t have exact equivalents. E.g. whether you call a template for the saorbhriathar {{sb}} or {{aut}} (for autonomous) you’re still creating a template for something that doesn’t exist in English anyway. That’s probably a bad example as we don’t really need a template for it, but consider ainm briathartha vs verbal noun vs present participle and aidiacht bhriathartha vs verbal adjective vs past participle. There are cases where you have to choose between trying to line Irish up with an English category which isn’t quite the same or creating a new one, in which case why not use the native name?
Another problem is ambiguity. The classic case is gender: does {{f}} denote firinscneach (i.e. "masculine") or feminine (.i. "baininscneach")?
Maybe the solution is to have a set of templates with Irish names/params for Irish entries and English ones for the rest? I’m not sure how much duplication this would involve, but I suspect that in some areas the duplication would have to happen anyway, e.g. including declension info in a noun template could be made to work across languages, but would be a headache.
Perhaps this separation could help with the gender problem: entering a f parameter in an Irish noun template would always output f. whereas in an English one it would output b.. Or maybe it would confuse things more. Another approach might be to require longer parameters, e.g. masc, fir, fem, bain.
BTW I’ve had a quick look at the Wiktionnaire (français), well the entry for chat anyway, and it seems that their templates are all French. Indeed one I’ve already used a couple of times here is originally French - {{trad}} for traduction "translation" - though somehow it seems to have come here via the Dutch wikt ;).
Comments?
Moilleadóir 06:13, 17 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

Audio[athraigh]

(Copied from Plé_Úsáideora:Moilleadóir)
...Can we please have both IPA and audio and proper orthography here? Le do thoil, pretty please? I looked at commons and was proud and happy to see plenty of Dutch audio. Gaelic? Zero comma zero... Tsk. Jcwf 17:35, 16 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

In principle I agree with you about audio, but I think it’s something to work on ‘down the track’. Even the IPA can be contentious - I know that some of what I’ve put in is Conamara-ish for example. We probably need to start a list of abbreviations so that we can mark these things. ☸ Moilleadóir 06:18, 17 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

Giorrúcháin / Abbreviations[athraigh]

Seo é an liosta giorrúchán a mholaimse. Ní bheidh ’chuile cheann díobh seo fóinteach dúinn anseo, ach is fiú liosta a dhéanamh mar sin féin.

Work-in-progress! Please add to it as you see fit, though there are probably only a small number of (commonly used) words that we actually need abbreviations for.

Ranna cainte srl.[athraigh]

Giorr. Gaeilge Abbr. Béarla Nótaí
acr. acrainm  ? acronym {{-acr-}}
M.sh. / e.g. AIDS - fuaimnítear mar fhocal / pronounced as a word
ainm. ainmfhocal n. noun {{-ainm-}} {{-noun-}}

{{ainm 1}} {{ainm 2}} {{ainm 3}} {{ainm 4}} {{ainm 5}}
{{-fainm-}} {{-nounf-}}

ainm.d. ainm dílis pr.n. proper noun (proper name) {{-ainmd-}} {{-propn-}}
abr. ainm briathartha v.n. verbal noun {{abr.}} {{.abr}} {{.vn}}
aid. aidiacht adj. adjective {{-aid-}} {{-adj-}} {{aid.}}

{{-faid-}} {{-adjf-}}

aidbhr. aidiacht bhriathartha v.adj. verbal adjective {{aidbhr.}} {{.aidbhr}} {{.vadj}}
aid.sheal. aidiacht shealbhach poss.adj. possessive adjective mo, do, srl. {{-aidsheal-}} {{-possadj-}}
br. briathar v. verb {{-briath-}} {{-verb-}}

{{briath}} {{verb}}
{{-fbriath-}} {{-verbf-}}

cón. cónasc conj. conjunction {{-cón-}} {{-conj-}}
dob. dobhriathar adv. adverb {{-dobh-}}

{{dobh.}}

for. forainm pron. pronoun {{-for-}} {{-pronoun-}}
for.r. forainm réamhfhoclach prep. pron. prepositional pronoun
fr.aid. frása aidiachtúil adj.phr. adjectival phrase
fr.dob. frása dobhriathartha adv.phr. adverbial phrase
gi. mar aid. ginideach iolra mar aidiacht gpl. as adj. genitive plural as adjective {{gimaraid}} {{gplasadj}}
giorr. giorrúchán abbr. or contr. abbreviation or contraction {{-giorr-}} {{-abbr-}} {{-contr-}}
gu. mar aid. ginideach uatha mar aidiacht gs. as adj. genitive singular as adjective {{gumaraid}} {{gsasadj}}
réim. réimír pref. prefix {{-réim-}} {{-pfx-}}
inm. inmhír inf. infix {{-inm-}} {{-infx-}}
iar. iarmhír suff. suffix {{-iar-}} {{-sfx-}}
inis. inisealachas int. initialism {{-inis-}} {{-init-}}
M.sh. / e.g. HIV
int. intriacht int. interjection
leag. leagan cainte idiom idiom {{-leag-}} {{-idiom-}}
m. mír part. particle {{-mír-}} {{-part-}}
m.cbh. mír choibhneasta rel.part. relative particle {{-mcbh-}} {{-relpart-}}
m.gm. mír gairmeach voc.part. vocative particle {{-mgm-}} {{-vocpart-}} {{m.gm.}}
ráit. ráiteachas expr. expression {{-ráit-}} {{-expr-}}
rfh. réamhfhocal prep. preposition {{-rfh-}} {{-prep-}}
rfh.comh. réamhfhocal comhshuite comp.prep. compound preposition
seanfh. seanfhocal prov. proverb {{-seanfh-}} {{-prov-}}
dísp. díspeagadh dim. diminutive {{.dísp}} {{.dim}}
for.pear. forainm pearsanta pers.pron. personal pronoun
for.taisp. forainm taispeántach dem.pron. (dem.?) demonstrative pronoun
for.ceist. forainm ceisteach int.pron. interrogative pronoun {{-forc-}} {{-intpr-}}
for.éig. forainm éiginnte ind.pron. indefinite pronoun
for.seal. forainm sealbhach poss.pron. possessive pronoun Doesn’t exist in Irish: mine, yours, etc.
for.ath. forainm athfhillteach ref.pron. reflexive pronoun
ársa ársa arch. archaic
sofh. sofhriotal euph. euphemism
dímh. dímheasúil derog. derogatory
réig. réigiúnach reg. regional See below - I don’t see this as a useful label. ☸ Moilleadóir 08:55, 24 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)
can. canúint dial. dialect I don’t think we should ever use this for Irish entries. Info about what dialect would be better. In fact, why use it at all since it can be pejorative? ☸ Moilleadóir 08:55, 24 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)
uimh. uimhir num. number {{-uimh-}} {{-num-}}
mal. malartach var. variant {{-mal-}} {{mal}}

Ainmfhocail[athraigh]

Giorr. Gaeilge Abbr. Béarla Nótaí
bain. baininscneach fem. feminine {{bain}} bain.
fir. firinscneach masc. masculine {{fir}} fir.
n. neodrach n. neuter {{n}} n.
ic. inscne chomhair (?) c. common {{ic.}} i.c.
a. ainmneach nom. nominative
ai. ainmneach iolra npl. nominative plural {{ai.}} {{.ai}}
au. ainmneach uatha ns. nominative singular
g. ginideach g. genitive
gi. ginideach iolra gpl. genitive plural {{gi.}} {{.gi}}
gu. ginideach uatha gs. genitive singular {{gu.}} {{.gu}}
iol. iolra pl. plural {{iol.}} {{.iol}}
t. tabharthach d. dative
ti. tabharthach iolra dpl. dative plural
tu. tabharthach uatha ds. dative singular {{tu.}} {{.tu}}
gm. gairmeach voc. vocative
gmi. gairmeach iolra voc.pl. vocative plural
gmu. gairmeach uatha voc.s. vocative singular
cusp. cuspóireach acc. accusative {{cusp.}} {{.cusp}}
ionstr. ionstraimeach instr. instrumental
áit. áitreabhach loc. locative
och. ochslaíoch abl. ablative
déach déach dual dual
 ? *gainneach  ? paucal Is this likely to come up often? ☸ Moilleadóir 08:55, 24 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)
cnuas. cnuasainm coll. collective noun {{cnuas.}} {{coll.}}
ad. ainm dílis pr.n. proper noun {{ad.}}
inchomhairthe countable Fiontar: inchomhairthe aidbhr, inchomhairimh a1, ináirithe (brí matamaiteach amháin)
dochomhairthe uncountable Fiontar: = neamh-ináirithe, (brí matamaiteach amháin)

Briathra[athraigh]

Giorr. Gaeilge Abbr. Béarla Nótaí
láith. aimsir láithreach pres. present tense {{láith.}} {{pres.}}

{{.láith}} {{.pres}}

cait. aimsir chaite past. past tense {{cait.}} {{past.}}

{{.cait}} {{.past}}

fáist. aimsir fháistineach fut. future tense {{fáist.}} {{fut.}}

{{.fáist}} {{.fut}}

coin. modh coinníollach cond. conditional tense
gc. aimsir ghnáthchaite hab.past. (imperf.) habitual past (imperfect)
fosh. modh foshuíteach sub. subjunctive
ord. modh ordaitheach imp. imperative
sb. saorbhriathar aut. autonomous {{sb.}} {{aut.}}
f.c. an fhaí chéasta pass. passive voice
f.g. an fhaí ghníomhach act. active voice
rang. rangabháil part. participle
geir. geireann ger. gerund
aistr. aistreach tr. transitive {{aistr.}}
naistr. neamhaistreach i. intransitive {{naistr.}}
r. rialta reg. regular {{r.}} {{reg.}}
nr. neamhrialta irr. irregular {{nr.}} {{irr.}}
spl. spleách dep. dependant {{spl.}} {{dep.}}

Canúintí[athraigh]

Drawn in part from abbreviations used in Rev. Patrick S. Dinneen, Foclóir Gaeḋilge agus Béarla, Irish Texts Society, Dublin, 1934, since this may be a source for info on dialect forms.

Giorr. Gaeilge Béarla Nótaí
A.M. Co. Ard Mhacha Co. Armagh
Aont. Co. Aontroma Co. Antrim
Ár. Árainn, na hOileáin Árann Inishmore, Aran (Islands)
Blasc. Na Blascaoidí Blasket Islands
C. Connachta Connaught
Cabh. Co. an Chabháin Co. Cavan
C.B. Corca Baoiscinn Dinneen: "a district in Co. Clare"
C.Ch. Co. Chill Chainnigh Co. Kilkenny
C.D. Co. Chill Dara Co. Kildare
C.Fh. Cois Fharraige {{CFh}}
Ciarr. Co. Chiarraí Co. Kerry
Cm. An Comarach Comeragh (Co. Phort Láirge)
C.M. Co. Chill Mhantáin Co. Wicklow
D. Co. Dhoire Co. Derry
D.G. Co. Dhún na nGall Co. Donegal {{DnG}}
Ds. An Déise = Co. Phort Láirge
F.M. Co. Fhear Manach Co. Fermanagh
Gaill. Co. na Gaillime Galway
G.D. Gaoth Dobhair Gweedore
I.M. Inis Meáin Inishmaan
L. Laighin Leinster
L.C. Leath Cuinn Dinneen: "Northern half of Ireland"
L.G. Co. Loch Garman Co. Wexford
M. Mumhain Munster {{Mumh}}
Muin. Co. Mhuineacháin Co. Monaghan
Ó M. Ó Méith Omeath
Or. {Oiríalla) Oriel Dinneen. Prob. refers to post-Norman Oriel (Co. Lú & Co. Mhuineacháin) not ancient kingdom!
P.L. Co. Phort Láirge Co. Waterford
Reach. Reachlainn Rathlin Island (Co. Aontroma)
R.G.D. Na Rosa & Gaoth Dobhair = Ros. in Dinneen ("list of words (mostly from the Rosses and Gweedore disctricts of Co. Donegal) by A. O'Doherty.")
Rinn An Rinn
Ros. Na Rosa The Rosses NB: In Dinneen this refers to "list of words (mostly from the Rosses and Gweedore disctricts of Co. Donegal) by A. O'Doherty."
Spid. An Spidéal Spiddle
T.E. Co. Thír Eoghain Co. Tyrone
T.M.E. Tuar Mhic Éadaigh Tourmakeady
Tor. Oileán Thoraigh Tory Island
Torr Torr Baile i nGaoth Dobhair, Co. Dhun na nGall. Dinneen.
U. Ulaidh Ulster
U.R. Uíbh Ráthach (Co. Chiarraí)

Catagóir:Canúintí na Gaeilge

Moilleadóir 10:10, 22 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

No, some of these things do not occur in Irish or even very often in other languages, but they do in some; paucals e.g. in Fijian, which has a singular, an inclusive dual, exclusive dual, a paucal and a plural. How the keep them apart I don't know either.. I do think it is probably useful to have terminology ready that is general in nature, not just geared for Gaelic or even just Indo-European. (Whether you need abbreviations for all is a different matter.) Not that I expect many Fijians here who are fluent in Gaelic (although you never know nowadays..) but because we are all part of a panlingual dictionary project. All words from all languages in all languages and such. Even the Fijian wikti is only one click away...

152.1.193.137 19:33, 24 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC) Jcwf
P.S. It is probably useful to create a category for linguistic terms, wouldn't you think?

Ábhair (comhthéacs) / Subjects (context)[athraigh]

Liosta fada le cruthú. ( [1] ) ☸ Moilleadóir 10:39, 22 Meán Fómhair 2007 (UTC)

Vicífhoclóir:Teimpléid#Ábhair / Subjects

Catagóir:Teimpléid: Ábhair

Teimpléid ‘foirm de’ / ‘Form of’ templates[athraigh]

Only done for Irish so far!

Toradh Teimpléad Nótaí
Iolra de focal. {{.iol|focal}} plural
Ainmneach iolra de focal. {{.ai|focal}} nominative plural
Ginideach uatha de focal. {{.gu|focal}} genitive singular
Ginideach iolra de focal. {{.gi|focal}} genitive plural
Ginideach uatha agus ainmneach iolra den fhocal focal. {{.guai|focal}} genitive singular and nominative plural
Ginideach uatha agus ginideach iolra de focal. {{.gugi|focal}} genitive singular and genitive plural
Iolra agus ginideach uatha de focal. {{.guiol|focal}} genitive singular and plural
Tabharthach uatha de focal. {{.tu|focal}} dative singular
Leagan malartach de focal. {{.mal|focal}} variant form
Díspeagadh de focal. {{.dísp|focal}}
{{.dim|word}}
diminutive

Reference[athraigh]

Sinn féin[athraigh]

How Wiktionary does it[athraigh]

Ord / Order[athraigh]

en:wikt arrange parts of speech within an entry for a particular language in alphabetcal order. This is a simple solution which also avoids arguments over the right way to do it. I’ll compile here examples of how it’s done in various dictionaries.

There are, of course, no entries that fit in all parts of speech so some of this is speculation.

Niall Ó Dónaill, Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla, Oifig an tSoláthair, Baile Átha Cliath, 1977

Ainmfhocal / Noun     Forainm / Pronoun ?
Ainm Dílis / Proper noun
Briathar / Verb
Aidiacht / Adjective
Míreanna / Particles
Mír ghairmeach / Vocative particle
(Mír d'uimhreacha / Particle used with numbers)
Mír choibhneasta / Relative particle (actually comes after Réamhfhocail / Preposition in entry for a)
Réamhfhocail / Preposition
Conasc / Conjunction
Intriacht / Interjection
crostagairt / cross-reference (m.sh. aistrigh > aistreach, abair > abar)

Tomás de Bhaldraithe, English-Irish Dictionary, Oifig an tSoláthair, Baile Átha Cliath, 1959

Aidiacht / Adjective
Réamhfhocail / Preposition
Cónasc / Conjunction
Dobhriathar / Adverb
Ainmfhocal / Noun
Briathar / Verb

Actually the order in de Bhaldraithe varies depending on context - the more common meaning sometimes comes first, e.g. by is prep., adv. then a.

Foclóir Nua Béarla-Gaeilge

Ainmfhocal / Noun
Briathar / Verb
Aidiacht / Adjective
Dobhriathar / Adverb
Réamhfhocail / Preposition
*Cinntitheach / Determiner (determinative)
Mír / Particle
Intriacht / Interjection

Moilleadóir 03:21, 1 Feabhra 2008 (UTC)